Question

I am a math teacher who found this site through the MIT OpenCourseWare pages. On one hand, I can see how this site can be useful for people who truly want to learn, but unfortunately, the vast majority of people are abusing the site.

Take a look at the Mathematics forum which has thousands of questions posted per day. The questions are posted verbatim, with no attempt to try the problem beforehand. These students are not interested in learning the material, they are interested in getting the answer to a specific question and moving on.

Answer 1

Your opinion is noted. Most of us who have spent time here do not concur.

Answer 2

I have sat and watched entire tests being posted, question by question. Many of the questions are variations of the same thing, but because the person only wants the answer, there's no attempt to figure anything out for themselves.

On the flip side, many people answer questions with the intention of being helpful, but are really just giving the answer. In my opinion, a person helping someone else to learn should almost never just give the person the answer, but instead should lead them there so they figure it out for themselves.

The problem is that there is no behavior expectation on OpenStudy, I think. There are some boards that don't have this problem...a lot of the OpenCourseWare pages are full of independent learners. But you go to lower level forums, and these problems are extremely prevalent.

Answer 3

First of all, many of us do agree with shandelman.

Second, there are behavioral expectations of users on this website. The expectations are outlined in the code of conduct. http://openstudy.com/code-of-conduct If moderators become aware of people trying to cheat on tests, or only giving out answer, we do respond to this.

Answer 4

@AnimalAin To your credit, you do your best to explain where the answer comes from, but if you're just giving the answer, you're feeding into exactly what they want. I guarantee you that 99% of your words are wasted because the people who are just looking for the answer are going to completely ignore your explanation. Studying is a back and forth! The teacher should not be doing most of the work. The first thing I want to know when I help someone is what they already know. If someone just posts a question (my favorite are the ones that say "Explain in complete sentences" or have some point value attached because they really were just pulled off a test) I like to see some effort has already been made...those are the posts I'm most likely to respond to.

@KingGeorge Thank you, I missed that code of conduct. However, it's focused much more on the helper than the question asker. A lot of these students don't really understand what "study" means.

Answer 5

I totally concur with @KingGeorge - most of the members here try to avoid just giving out answers. however, if we find such incidents, then we always warn the helper not to just give out an answer but, as you indicated @shandelman, guide the asker to the answer by trying to engage them in the process of finding the answer.

Answer 6

Looking at the questions only does not give a complete picture.
I try to help the asker several times and try to interact with them so that they are learning the process along the way. If this site was answer only, I would not come back day after day to help people. I promote the site as much as I can.

Answer 7

As for the asker's not wanting to participate in the problem solving process, there's this little tidbit in the CoC,

"Have homework problems? We can help you - as long as you are looking to learn how to get your solution (and not just the answer)."

If you see anyone breaking this, hit the report button, and moderators will respond.

Answer 8

I appreciate Open Study and all that we are trying to do here. The world is not perfect and I choose to help the site be a better place. I can not control other user but I do my part as best I can.

Answer 9

I 100% agree with shandleman.

One time I told a person that why he had not try to do it firstly by his own self. Then a user (I don't want to take his name), he told me in strict word to not to say anything to any user and further he said let them ask what they want.

By that time, I never again told any user to try the question by self. I just help them.

I tried to notice this about the admin, but that time I was a new user so I had not any idea how to do this.

Answer 10

I just feel weird about reporting people for trying to be helpful but giving too much. Take a look at http://openstudy.com/study#/updates/4ffdf1d9e4b09082c06f4103 for example. Was the person who answered the question being anything less than helpful? He gave the formula, showed how to plug the number into the formula, showed how to account for the fact that the diameter was given, not the radius, and then gave the answer. The person who asked the question thanked him and went on her way.

But what was learned? It was a multiple choice question...he gave every step and the answer without figuring out what the person (or the sister in this case) knew or didn't know. Should I report him for this? I feel like it's a more systemic problem than "this person is breaking the code of conduct." Maybe the code should give specific examples of "good" asker/tutor interaction and bad. Codes of conduct are meaningless if they're open to interpretation.

I realize at the end of the day, everyone just has to try their best and have good intentions, but I hate to see any opportunity for good teaching squandered.

Answer 11

Yes @shandelman exactly, what I said. Those people don't even try to learn.

When we answer anyone question, then they post 5 or more same question.
They don't use mind that same question must use same logics. But they are really unable to think.

Answer 12

I don't think they're unable, but when people are just willing to give them the answers, thinking is certainly not required.

Answer 13

Yes it is. Steps must be taken by administrators or moderators.

Answer 14

The Code of Conduct, as with laws, ultimately means what it is interpreted as meaning by the purveyors of justice. On here, that's the moderation team.

It's perhaps a wording issue. Do note that reporting someone as abusive does not mean they will be suspended or that strong disciplinary action will be taken. Particularly when we're looking at a situation where people are just giving out answers, we inform them that the expectation is to guide people to the answer, not simply provide it. If it's a user who is just seeking answers, we inform them that they are expected to engage with their helpers, not simply look for an answer.

Only if people ignore these polite requests do we take stronger action (initially we suspend them for a short time, then a longer time, then if it's still evident that they will not participate positively in the community, we ban them permanently).

Answer 15

Now, you also bring up the fact that ‘it's a more systemic problem than "this person is breaking the code of conduct."’ To some extent, this is a good point. But we have a growing core of users who understand the principles of the site and inform new users of them. Our goal is to grow this core, and shed the members who are unwilling to adhere to those principles. We do this with our moderation team. We are changing the balance of the system, in essence.

Answer 16

Last but not least, regarding examples in the code of conduct—to be honest, the code of conduct is already too long. Examples would make us feel better, but they would reduce even further the likelihood that anyone would read it. A different structure to it may be a good idea.

Answer 17

@shadowfiend said, "we inform them that the expectation is to guide people to the answer, not simply provide it. If it's a user who is just seeking answers, we inform them that they are expected to engage with their helpers, not simply look for an answer."

Yes this should be.
But unfortunately, this is not happening here.
Many users post question and go offline without mention anyone that they could help them.
They think when we will come online again we will get our answer completely so why should waste time.

I noticed many user who go offline immediately after posting questions.

\[\huge \text{This is not the way Openstudy work.} \]

Answer 18

I'm going to hop on this thread as well. I would like to reiterate that while filing an abuse report doesn't instantly mean that someone is going to be punished, we aren't going to play around if it becomes obvious someone is using the site to cheat on a test, isn't interested in the least in seeking answers, etc.

We're building a community that cares about tutoring. Unfortunately, as with any online community it takes time to build it correctly. The best thing you can do, if you want to see the community achieve the vision we have set for it, is make use of abuse reports to bring our attention to these abuses when you see them.

It's *impossible* for us to see everything that goes on at all times. It's just not practical. We depend on our community members to be our eyes for us.

Thanks, as always for your honest feedback. Users like you, who are willing to say something, genuinely make this site a better place and remind me why it's important for me to spend time on here doing what I can.

Answer 19

For what it's worth, the person whose question I just linked to just posted another, very similar question, opening with "Sorry, my sister needs just one more answer." If that's not beautifully indicative of everything I just mentioned, well, I don't know what is! :)

Answer 20

We never disagreed that this happens, but report abuse so we can deal with it, and we will! :)

Answer 21

@shandelman You've got a great point there. I've noticed this as well.
And I have tried saying things about it to the users who only give answers but they ultimately don't listen to someone of our value.

Answer 22

I know. It's just funny that a perfect example basically fell into my lap.

Answer 23

Yeah. It happens all the time.
Some of the users just don't care anymore. probably because they don't believe that they would get into trouble or what not.

Answer 24

Actually I shouldn't say that they don't care. That would be lying.

Answer 25

Hello everyone, sorry I missed the start of this discussion - but I definitely want to jump in now.

Ultimately, the issues that you bring up @shandelman absolutely do occur on OpenStudy. I would argue that issues like these happen on literally every corner of the internet where academics are discussed. OpenStudy's stance is very clear, that we prioritize learning and frown upon cheating.

As a teacher yourself, I assume that you assign homework. I also assume that you judge this homework based on the effort put forth as opposed to the correctness of the answers, correct? But do you know if students cheat? Or copy answers off each other? I would venture to say that you don't - which is absolutely not a reflection upon you as a teacher. Every academic institution I've ever been apart of, both in Europe and the United States, had regulations and rules against cheating. And cheating occurred at all of these places.

My point here is not to shed blame btw, it's to acknowledge that learning is in the hands of the person asking the question. The reason we, as OpenStudy, have developed rules and guidelines that address the people *answering* the question is, in my mind, an economic one. People looking to just get answers will *always* be here - via search, via social media, or friends - people without the right intentions will come to OpenStudy. By focusing our efforts on the 'teachers' of OpenStudy, we hope to remove the incentive for them to come.

Additionally, we've taken *multiple* steps towards creating a more learner-centric community - just in the last six months we've introduced SmartScore to get away from linear rewards that rewarded negative behavior, a single question at a time to stop people mass posting entire assignments, and a revamp of the Code of Conduct to address these issues.

This is a very important topic to discuss, and I'm very glad you brought it up here. Because while we've taken steps, ultimately the community is what we rely on to bring this to our attention. As both @farmdawgnation and @shadowfiend have mentioned, we rely on our users.

Thank you for the feedback @shandelman - and we're more than open to any other suggestions on this topic - whatever we as a team can do to aid the process among our users we'd love to know.

Thank you!

Answer 26

I would also like to jump in on this thread, briefly.

Many people - askers looking for just answers, helpers who think good tutoring means just giving answers - come here with bad habits. Over time, I have seen many bad students turn into good ones; I have seen many bad tutors turn into good teachers.

Much effort is put into making the site inefficient and difficult to use for cheaters. Sometimes it takes a bit of time and in that interim some users don't demonstrate the finest ideals of academic integrity - but in the end, the vast majority of them either shape up or leave.

Terrific points, all, especially shandelman.

Answer 27

The way I approach this is try your best to help the people who want to learn and try even harder to get the ones who don't seem interesting in learning to solving the problem. I never give out answers and always try to have the asker engaged in the question. Asked for their opinion or ask them what they think should be the next step.

And in the end if it doesn't work then the student will eventually hit a wall. Most walls come in a form of a test. You can't really cheat out a test and students have to study. Eventually this abuse will backfire so let it trickle but do try to get the students engaged.

Answer 28

people use this site to cheat?

Answer 29

Never.

Answer 30

I always assumed they were just trying to push my buttons ;)

Answer 31

They are simply utilizing time management. xD

Answer 32

@shandelman I really appreciate that kind of thinking. That's what we wonder too.

Answer 33

i'd like to \(\small \textbf{*leap*}\) into this conversation as well. during my thirteen months of stay here in openstudy, i have come to recognize the answer-seekers and the real leaners. some of the answer-seekers, like blues said, turned over a new leaf. before they would use this site for answers but nowadays engage in their questions. the users who would give out answers have learned to teach as well. it just needed some time for them to learn how.

furthermore, i have come to identify an answer-seeker from a real learner. i am also aware of their different styles to get the \(\small \textbf{*respondents*}\) to give out the answer. i feel like the way to lessen the number of answer-seekers on the site is tot each our users how to identify the answer-seekers and how teach them right. i see two possibilities from it: 1) the asker will learn and turn over a new leaf 2) quit OS because they cant get answers. true it is a sad loss to lose members but it is a sadder loss to stain the white sheets. that being said, i would be more than willing to teach the mentors here how to identify the answer-seekers through their styles and also how to teach them.

but heh; that's just my thoughts

Answer 34

I think you got your point across, sat. ;)

Answer 35

@satellite73 Just trying to make sure nobody gets their feelings hurt especially after going out on a limb to be honest about their feelings about this community. You're coming off as a bit brash, man.

Answer 36

@satellite73 - well put, and I appreciate your input on this. Don't need to delete anything fyi, but your call ;).

Ultimately, 'blanket' judgements like 'everyone is here to cheat' aren't really productive (not to mention in accurate). I'm a fan of discussions like these when we can use it to focus on how we can improve OpenStudy.

I, for one, am very glad that we got to hear from @satellite73 - and @shandelman your point of view is still valid, but I think it's important to see the other side of that equation (see what I did there?) as well.

Thanks everyone

Answer 37

honestly, i have lived a life of a learner here as well. in my opinion, i can say that in all of the questions i needed help on, a one-post-explanation just tends to make me even more confused. i was given a solution (no answers of course) but it really just tends to make me even more confused (this was in physics btw). Even in my chemistry questions, when people would post paragraph explanations instead of guiding me step-by-step i tend to just get more confused because of too many words.

what i'm trying to say is that i dont think posting a one-reply-explanation..even without answers...doesnt really help real learners nor answer-seekers. of course there is nothing we can do about that. however, i do plead to my fellow mentors to guide askers step by step instead of posting "monologue explanations" wherein a person will post the whole solution in multiple comments but not letting the person talk or the one-reply-explanation. because the real learners will ask you to explain it...and you'll eventually have to go step-by-step explanation and engage with the asker. the answer-seekers will just say "okay" until you give an answer. so basically, i dont think monologous explanations or one-reply-explanations help. i think im repeating myself now.but of course this is \(\small \textbf{*my*}\) opinion. if anyone shares my idea i would be glad to hear some support :)

Answer 38

Just clarifying...are you using a lot of words to say you want people to converse with you on a problem?

Answer 39

i think that was the point. long paragraphs are only good for arguments i think. but as explanations to problems not really. the problem i see with one-post explanation or monologous explanation is that the asker is not given time to think for himself. i believe that arriving at the answer by himself is a very good way to learn (which is why i am so impressed with Hero's teaching style). people tend to remember what they do, not what they see. this is proven scientifically i think.

Answer 40

Lol Well I don't think long paragraphs are only good for arguing, some are very informative and helpful.

I do, however, agree that when someone is mentoring another user them actually being involved is much more helpful. I don't think that there needs to be any rule to make this a mandatory action, though. Everyone's learning and teaching styles are different and to lock it into just "everyone communicate back and forth until this is understood" can be frustrating for both parties.

Answer 41

after deleting my diatribe, here is my more measured response
http://openstudy.com/study?login#/updates/50036295e4b0848ddd6934fb

Answer 42

lol can't decide if that or the diatribe was better xD