Question

Is this a violation of thermodynamics/conservation of energy?

Hallo everyone!

In a certain system that is transferring energy from one form or another, Its a known fact that energyIn = energyOut with losses.

However, if the output was "GREATER" then inputed ,Is that a violation?

I mean... Multiple forces,energy sources was applied that was able to do work. Thus the output was greater then inputed. Is that a violation? I'm trying to think of an example to fit this question but nothing comes to mind so far.... :P

Answer 1

In a certain system that is transferring energy from one form to another, Its a known fact that energyIn = energyOut with losses.*

Sorry I typed quickly... Forgive my grammer mistakes.

Answer 2

If there are no energy sources present and the amount of work put out by an engine (or some other system that converts heat to work or vice versa) is greater than the input then yes, you would probably have a violation, but such an event would never occur, so...

Answer 3

There are other energy source present and heat could be one of the sources in that cause there's no violation :) ?

Answer 4

In a sense, One energy source is present and could be considered as the "main" input. Then during the process of energy transfer, other energy sources or forces to be exact are applied on the object = more work, more energy transfer. :)

Answer 5

I could be crazy but what you're describing doesn't really make sense to me. If the extra energy can be attributed to other forces, then there's no violation. A violation of the conservation of energy would be, for instance, an engine with 100% efficiency or some apparatus by which I, as the only input, could do some amount of work and the other end of the machine did more. Do you have a particular system in mind?

Answer 6

Sorry for not clearing that out... I'm trying to bring a proper and useful example and then post it.

A system has reached 100% efficiency out with a certain input! More energy has been added to that same system and increased it's output by 200% for example. More energy out then what it originally started with :P hope you get the picture here @Jemurray3

I'm kinda tired and have nothing in mind so I'll be back and elaborate more and more! :) Hope you got the idea though.

Answer 7

I'm still not following. I'm sorry. If you can come up with an example of what you think constitutes a violation of the conservation of energy, let me know.

Answer 8

Good example:

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-03/09/230-percent-efficient-leds

A certain system used an input"electricity" and again a higher out with the use of "heat" adding more energy to the system.

Another way to describe my idea is that if you have one source of energy doing work, another source of energy is also added into the system.

Multiple sources of energy in one system gives out a higher output why? Multiple energy sources added together to give a higher output!


For somereason I can't explain things properly lol, If you didn't the idea still @Jemurray3 I'll come back and give you more info about the matter :)

Thanks so far,
Ow yea. I'm not trying to violate those 2 laws Im asking if this example of the ULTRA-EFFICIENT LED is a violation? I guess not since its using multiple sources to supply its output :)

Answer 9

No, it's not a violation. That extra energy is supplied by the vibrations of the crystal lattice, which is caused by the thermal agitation of the atoms. Essentially, it draws heat from the environment and converts it to light.

Answer 10

Thanks! Thats what I wanted to reach to, sorry for not clearing out things didn't sleep and I was so tired!

Anyway! What I tried to say is that one energy source was applied lets say that energy source is electricity and for some reason under certain condition! More output was present due to another energy source or a force applied parallel to the direction for work :)

No violation to both of the laws :D

I'm studying more about energy and the thermodynamics + conservation of energy so... Idea's are just popping up!