Question

To Christians and Muslims: Why would God punish non-believers for all eternity if there is room for reasonable doubt?

If eternal salvation is at stake here, isn't it fair to ask that Islam or Christianity be shown to be true beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt? If there is room for reasonable doubt in the truth of a religion, is it not unjust of God to punish those who do not believe for all eternity?

Answer 1

@Rookies2121
@PixieDust1
@Opcode
@KingCollins
@Ninian123

Answer 2

Punishment is function of what one does in their life no matter what religion one has. Generally when one has a religion they have a model in which to follow, even though they come short sometimes their willing to correct their lives with the help of their religion hopefully. With no religion all you can do is follow their Culture, State, and its a hard road growing up with all the din of voices one come in contact with.

Answer 3

God does make it very clear to us. We see that God reveals himself through the Bible. The Bible has no contradictions (check a recent discussion I had with Thomaster. He gave a lot of alleged contradictions, but all were disproven). Next, we see the Bible has hundreds of prophesies written thousand years earlier that came true. In addition, there are tons of End Times prophesies. Some of these are coming true (The Bible said the Jews would be living in Israel again, and now they are). Also, Jesus rose from the dead (over 500 recorded witnesses of that, even from secular people who were horrified!) We see the history in the Bible is accurate. God has given us plenty of evidence.

Answer 4

@PixieDust1 Hm, I find that there are 3 main problems when you assert that there is evidence of god in the bible.

1. You can't infallibly confirm the source; i.e. you can't prove that god wrote it.

2. When people get "evidence" from the bible they pick and choose what they want as "truth" and what they want as "poems and parables". It's illogical to have both possibilities and maintain any sort of legitimacy.

3. People often interpret passages or "read between the lines". People can interpret things differently, and because of this type of "evidence" is not evidence.


To the original question:
"Why would God punish non-believers for all eternity if there is room for reasonable doubt?"

The reasonable answer is that this god wouldn't, assuming that it had good intentions for life in the first place. More importantly, I find it very unlikely that the "most powerful being" would be preoccupied with life on this planet, specifically that I don't eat meat on good friday, or that my woman's body is hidden behind a cloth from head to toe.

Answer 5

@aaronq
1.) How could humans have had the knowledge of things that were going to happen thousands of years later? How did they know history without any errors whatsoever? How did they know the future? How did all those authors over hundreds and hundreds of years NEVER contradict each other? Fallible humans couldn't do that on their own. They were inspired by God.

2.) We don't "pick and choose". For example, many of the Old Testament books are CALLED poetry books. The writers themselves called them that. It was prophesied hundreds of years earlier that the Messiah would speak in parables. And He did. You can clearly tell when Jesus is telling a parable. Jesus did it on purpose so that the people would hear, understand, and know the truth.

3.) Yes, some Christians do try to fit the Bible to their agenda and misinterpret or ignore verses. They often want to justify a sin or prove their opinion. That is an incorrect way of interpreting and reading the Bible. The Bible is meant to have a literal interpretation. This means that poetry is literally interpreted as poetry. History is literally interpreted as history. The Bible is not somehow discredited because some people want the twist the truth written in it.

Answer 6

1. What exactly has the bible predicted?
Please provide the exact location for these claims in the bible as I will look it up.

2. Can you provide the location on the bible where it clearly states that the books contained from the Old testament are poetry?

"It was prophesied hundreds of years earlier that the Messiah would speak in parables. And He did."

I can't accept this as truth because it can be influenced. That is, there isn't a good reason why he couldn't have been instructed to do so by a man.

3. Agreed that there are people out there that simply wish to advance their agenda, as well as individuals who truly believe in the god for what it represents. Who is to say that their interpretation is more correct? The answer is no one.

Answer 7

This is a complete list of all the prophesies Jesus fulfilled. There are MANY MANY MANY more prophesies that other New Testament events fulfilled.
I. THE ACTUAL PROPHECIES

A. Concerning His Birth

1. Born of the seed of woman (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 4:4; Matthew 1:20)
2. Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18, 24, 25)
3. Son of God (Psalm 2:7; Matthew 3:17)
4. Seed of Abraham (Genesis 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16) Here it is determined that the Messiah would be a Jewish descendant.
5. Son of Isaac (Genesis 21:12; Luke 3:23,34) Abraham had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael. Now God eliminates one half of the lineage of Isaac.
6. Son of Jacob (Numbers 24:17; Luke 3:23,34) Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau. Now God eliminates one half of the lineage of Isaac.
7. Tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23,33) Jacob had twelve sons and each became a tribe of the Hebrew nation. Now God eliminates eleven-twelfths of the lineage of Jacob.
8. Family line of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1; Luke 3:23,32) Now God narrows it down even further by picking one family line out of the tribe of Judah.
9. House of David (Jeremiah 23:5; Luke 3:23,31) Jesse had at least eight sons (I Samuel 16:10,11). Now God eliminates all of Jesse's sons except one, David.
10. Born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1) Now God eliminates all the cities in the world except one, Bethlehem.
11. Presented with gifts (Psalm 72:10; Isaiah 60:6; Matthew 2:1,11)
12. Herod kills children (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16)

B. Concerning His Nature

13. His Pre-Existence (Micah 5:2; Colossians 1:17; John 1:1)
14. He shall be called Lord (Psalm 110:1; Luke 20:41-44)
15. He shall be called Immanuel ("God with us") (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23)
16. Shall be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18; Matthew 21:11)
17. Shall be a priest (Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:5,6)
18. Shall be a judge (Isaiah 33:22; John 5:30)
19. Shall be a king (Isaiah 33:22; Matthew 27:37)
20. Special anointment of the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16,17)
21. He zeal for God (Psalm 69:9; John 2:15-17)

C. Concerning His Ministry

22. Preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3; Matthew 3:1,2)
23. Ministry to begin in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1,2; Matthew 4:12,13,17)
24. Ministry of miracles (Isaiah 35:5, 6a; Matthew 9:35)
25. Teacher of parables (Psalm 78:2; Matthew 13:34)
26. He was to enter the temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12)
27. He was to enter Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Luke 19:35,36,37a)
28. A "Stone Of Stumbling" to the Jewish nation (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
29. "Light" to the Gentiles (Isaiah 60:3; 49:6; Acts 13:47,48a)

D. Concerning Events After His Burial

30. His resurrection (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31)
31. His ascension (Psalm 68:18a; Acts 1:9)
32. Seated at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

E. Prophecies Fulfilled In One Day

The following 29 prophecies from the Old Testament, which speak of the betrayal, trial, death and burial of Jesus, were spoken at various times by many different voices during the five centuries from 1000-500 BC, and yet all of them were literally fulfilled in one twenty-four hour period of time in Jesus' life.

33. Betrayed by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Matthew 10:4)
34. Sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15)
35. Money to be thrown down in God's house (Zechariah 11:13b; Matthew 27:5a)
36. Price given for potter's filed (Zechariah 11:13b; Matthew 27:7)

In the previous four prophecies we find in both prophecy and fulfillment the following:

1. Betrayed
2. By a friend
3. For 30 pieces of silver (not 29)
4. Silver (not gold)
5. Thrown down (not placed)
6. In God's house
7. Money used to buy potter's field

37. Forsaken by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7; Mark 14:50)
38. Accused by false witnesses (Psalm 35:11; Matthew 26:59-61)
39. Mute before accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-19)
40. Wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 27:26)
41. Smitten and spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Micah 5:1; Matthew 26:67)
42. Mocked (Psalm 22:7,8; Matthew 27:31)
43. Fell under the cross (Psalm 109:24; John 19:17; Luke 23:26)
44. Hands and feet pierced (Psalm 22:16; Luke 23:33)
45. Crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
46. Made intercession for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
47. Rejected by his own people (Isaiah 53:3; John 7:5,48)
48. Hated without a cause (Psalm 69:4; John 15:25)
49. Friends stood afar off (Psalm 38:11; Luke 23:49)
50. People shook their heads (Psalm 109:25; Matthew 27:39)
51. Stared upon (Psalm 22:17; Luke 23:35)
52. Garments parted and lots cast (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23,24)
53. Suffered thirst (Pslam 69:21; John 19:28)
54. Gall and vinegar offered Him (Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34)
55. His forsaken cry (Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46)
56. Committed Himself to God (Psalm 31:5; Luke 23:46)
57. His bones not broken (Psalm 34:20; John 19:33)
58. His heart broken (Psalm 22:14; John 19:34) The blood and water which came from Jesus' pierced side are evidences that the heart had literally burst.
59. His side pierced (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
60. Darkness over the land (Amos 8:9; Matthew 27:45)
61. Buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)

The Old Testament has at least 250 years between its completion and the New Testament.

Answer 8

Pentateuch--5 books
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy

Historical Books--12 books
Joshua, Judges, Ruth, First Samuel, Second Samuel, First Kings, Second Kings,
First Chronicles, Second Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther

Poetic books--5 books
Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon

Prophetic books--17 books
Major Prophets--Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel
Minor Prophets--Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk,
Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi

Answer 9

Thank for the lengthy reply, though you could've just posted the link http://www.askapastor.org/proph.html

Anyway, I don't see how "Born of the seed of woman" is even a prophecy, since everyone is born from a woman. None of claims can be verified, so their legitimacy depends on whether or not you have the preconception that the bible is true or not. This isn't convincing "evidence".

Answer 10

I was going to post the link, but I didn't think anyone would click on it.

And born from a women was just 1 in an entire list. It was important because most people thought a Messiah would like "come down from the clouds". They never expected it'd come from a women and follow the heritage line the Bible predicted. All the claims can be verified if you go through them all and see where it was prophesied and where it was fulfilled.

Answer 11

If no one can exactly belive in a God or Jehovah in other word here then whats the point explaining it if no one will exactly belive you..you post your explaination but others contradict it. So exactly whats the point. I've tryed but either they contradict what i say or they just use it against me. The main point it to belive in god..and god is love.

Answer 12

"All the claims can be verified if you go through them"

None of the claims can be verified as there is no documentation that dates that far back. Like, "Born of a virgin", how can you prove that Mary was a virgin? you can't. Can you replicate it? Didn't think so, it is therefore not verifiable.

Answer 13

Okay, let me clarify myself. My second half to the post you quoted said "All the claims can be verified if you go through them all and see where it was prophesied and where it was fulfilled." I was speaking that if you look up the first Old Testament verse where it was prophesied. Then look at the New Testament verse to see where it was fulfilled.

Answer 14

You can use the process of polemics on any text, even if it appears self consistent that does mean its true or real. Try this with any good novel as a science fiction or mystery and you'll find their self consistent, that's what makes it a good novel. The basic question you should be asking "Am I going to accept the Holy Bible as truth and if so what should I take as time invariant". The time invariance is the nature of man, which is not very good according to the Bible, and what moral codes can I gather and follow. This is why today we have so many denominations today, each one prioritize their own moral codes taken from the Bible, rather than taken it at face value and follow it.

Answer 15

Difference with a novel being self consistent and the Bible being self consistent is that a novel is written in 1-2 years by one author in one location, while the Bible was written in many locations over thousand+ years by many different people.

Answer 16

Still it makes no difference if the more recent writers use previous writing in which to base their present ones. This was possible because the ancient Hebrew writers truly believed in their God and His continual influence. Same with the New Testament Gospel's where the authors were very familiar with the Old Testament and it's prophesy's. As I said using polemics as a bases for truth is a poor why to go, you either accept the truth or not and the only proof one eventually gets is their life and possibly the one after.

Answer 17

"you either accept the truth or not and the only proof one eventually gets is their life and possibly the one after."

I'm not the kind of person who can go by blind faith. And neither is anyone else here.

Answer 18

I didn't say Blind Faith, I said "the only proof one eventually gets is their life and possibly the one after". This means you may experience things in your life which may confirm, I have, your understandings but I reserve what comes after to my Lords. I haven't been in the afterlife so I can say nothing about it.

Answer 19

what i wanna say is this :-
im not a God to know if he is gonna punish non-believers bla bla
ppl who have faith they just have ( what ever the reson for them )
and ppl who dnt have faith they just dnt have lol also what ever they resons are !
the matter is just have faith in ur self , and let jugeing ppl lol

Answer 20

\(\textbf{Question:}\) To Christians and Muslims: Why would God punish non-believers for all eternity if there is room for reasonable doubt?

If eternal salvation is at stake here, isn't it fair to ask that Islam or Christianity be shown to be true beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt? If there is room for reasonable doubt in the truth of a religion, is it not unjust of God to punish those who do not believe for all eternity?

\(\textbf{Answer:}\)
I am a Muslim, and this is my interpretation from the Qur'an, any other Muslims are free to provide their own views, as Islam is open to interpretations. Please note I respect, atheists, Christians, Jews, and every other religion, movement or conclusion.

Right off the bat, you have a little flaw. Islam clearly states NO ONE EXCEPT GOD CAN SENTENCE YOU TO HELL OR HEAVEN. Those who use God's name in personal benefit for gain, are the ones who exploit religion and are part of the evil in this world. (The Qur'an clearly states the result of such behaviour and condemns it clearly.)

"God gave you a brain, he demands you use it." To NOT be sceptical of your religion, to NOT question it, is an insult to the God that is above us. Islam REVOLVES around the OPEN SOURCE "concept". The reason to have scholars is to ask the hard and complex questions, scholars are there for our guidance, there is NOT A SINGLE SHAME in asking sceptical questions to scholars as long as it is in a respectable manner. In fact asking sceptical questions are encouraged by scholars (at least from the Islamic Golden Age) as the aim of these questions are not to disprove your belief, but to strengthen it.

In the Qur'an it states the fate of the disbelievers that REJECT God, but if you are an atheist, do your reject him or do you have just have no belief in Him? (Rejecting Him would be as acknowledging his existence, yet ignoring him.) The latter would be true, right? If you have honestly looked for the truth, and conducted plenty of honest research and came to the conclusion that God does not exist that is okay. You do not hurt any person, not even God. Just make sure that you do not say that you have decided to ‘reject God’ (as some people do and use abusive language to describe Him), since you can not reject anything that does not exists in your mind. You just sincerely do not believe that He exists; because, had He really existed according to your reasoning, you would have surely acknowledged Him. After all, your conclusion is based on your honest and sincere analysis, and not mere emotionalism or bias. Do to you removing emotionalism or bias, you decided to continue having integrity and an open mind, you will not hesitate to acknowledge Him if you happen to experience something in future that convinces you that He is there. Islam welcomes this state of mind.

I would like to add something else; to those who claim empirical evidence for the existence of God, or against the existence of God are blind or plain biased. All we can do, is use logic, analysis and our God given brain to reason our belief in whether He exists or not. To those who try to empirically prove or disprove God are wasting their time, science is to be used on empirical objects, God is not empirical, therefore your attempts are futile and plain silly (you could call it unscientific too.). Perhaps that is why there are many more atheist scientist, than theist ones as most scientist have an obsession in being materialistic and empirical, and the things that do not fall into their system are ignore, denied, or fought against.

\(\textbf{Too lazy? Did not read? Summary below:}\)
Islam does NOT condemn those who have doubt, within a reasonable stature.
Islam does condemn those who have reject God, after acknowledging his existence.
God defines just, and non-just; we humans do not therefore incapable of saying what God will do to us.

> In Islam it is said that God had 99 names, a few names being, the most just, and the most merciful. Muslims are forbidden to cast the ruling whether a person will or will not go to help, for it is up to Him.

\(\textbf{Addresing some other interesting things I saw in this thread:}\)
Science does not definitely refute religion, unless you choose to have a materialistic and empiricist view on everything. Which as a person of morals or ethical behaviour, should not. I can see how ever that science (modern science) is based on naturalism which leads to such a view, but that is a choice. I see it as science as a tool that we can use, we do not have to let a tool cloud our view on the rest of us.

@InspiredAtheist +1 on the awesome question.